The Overrated Matches

[HEIDENREICH]

Mиналият път станаха хубави дискусии ето новите предложения на Michael Weyer.Като гледам избора му може би този път ще има най-много спорове..Автора е вкарал в листата някои от най-любимите ми мачове и мачовете от WCW които харесвам най-много.Ако имам време ще коментирам основно-аз не съм доволен от списъка този път

I really hadn't intended for this to be a series when I started it up. However, it looks to be going that way after all for a bit. After giving my takes on overrated and underrated wrestlers, I'm now moving to matches and again, a bit of explanation is needed first.

First of all, just as with my overrated wrestlers list, I'm not saying these matches are bad. In fact, many are quite good actually. But, to me, they just don't approach the massive "OMG, the BEST matches ever" so many give them. As you can see, they're a unique cross-section, some hailed as true classics of technical battles, others more "spotfests" or outright brawls. And again, they are my own judgment but to me, they just don't get the massive acclaim I've heard so much of.

I know that it's a matter of taste at time. Many say the Mankind/Undertaker Hell in the Cell match is overrated, just Foley's massive falls but I do think it hangs together well with Foley's incredible refusal to stop fighting carrying it. I'm sure many will say any match with Cena is overrated as they hate him but I've made my feelings on him clear. I admit also to not being as big a "workrate" freak but I do appreciate technical battles so some fans may claim to be "boring" I like. Also, I acknowledge the difference in fans' ages; For example, a lot of younger fans will say the Ramon/Michaels Wrestlemania X ladder match is overrated but you had to be there at the time to truly appreciate the magnitude of how much it changed the whole flow of wrestling.

Well, with my explanations over, let's get to the list:

Ric Flair vs Ricky Steamboat, WrestleWar ‘89:

We might as well get the biggest one off the bat right now. I know I'll hear it for this one, I know it's considered the best of the trilogy the two did in '89 but the fact is, WrestleWar is the one that leaves me colder than the rest. Now, it's true, no such thing as a bad match between these two but I've always been more partial to Chi-Town Rumble with its bigger excitement about the two meeting, the question of whether Steamboat would indeed win the title and all ending with Steamboat's great win. And their hour-long two-out-of-three battle a month earlier is even better with the psychology of Steamboat making Flair submit to add to the chemistry between them. But to me, the final match is the least of the trio. It's great, of course, but a lot of repeated spots from the first two and it was pretty much obvious to everyone Flair would get the belt back. It's more memorable for the aftermath of Terry Funk attacking Flair to set up their match. Yes, it's a classic battle but as with so many trilogies, the first time is truly the best.

Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich, David Von Erich Memorial Parade of Champions

: It's the emotion that gave this match its reputation. All of Texas was still reeling from the death of David Von Erich months earlier and Kerry was pretty much getting the belt by default. It's surprising to me that the WWE's World Class DVD gives Kerry more of a shake than I expected. I remember Flair's bio has him openly talking about Kerry being stoned during previous matches and was hard to work with in the ring because of it. The match itself wasn't really as long as some recall either and it's pretty easy to see how Flair was running things right in the ring. That Kerry just pulls a backslide out of nowhere to pin Flair was rather sudden and I recall Flair saying in his book they had to make it an easy enough finish for Kerry to remember. It was a good emotional moment to see Kerry win but the match itself just doesn't hold up, particularly given what would happen to Kerry down the road.

Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels, Wrestlemania XII:

You do have to give credit to Vince for agreeing to a 60-minute match in 1996, a time when WWE was hardly catering to hardcore workrate fans. And Michaels and Bret did do their utmost to make it work. The thing is, watching the whole match now, it does seem not quite as free-flowing and quick-paced as it might have at the time. There was some stalling and some of the technical segments went a bit long as well. The problem, I've always felt, was making it an Iron Man match. If it had been a straight-up battle and they went the whole hour, it would have been damn cool. But when they got to the halfway point with neither man scoring a fall, pretty much every mark could see this was going to a sudden death situation. The whole damn point of an Iron Man match is to score multiple falls but of course, neither Bret nor Shawn wanted to be the first to go down and their own egos marred the whole thing. It was only the last few minutes that the pace really picked up but then the ending of Shawn refusing to give in as time went out and the order of the sudden death period gave it a "screwjob" feel. For what it was, it was a great battle but not as cool as it might have been had the two been able to let go of their collective egos and pride to make the Iron Man concept work.

Raven & Stevie Richards vs the Pitbulls:

I know so many ECW fans call this one of the best matches ever from the promotion and it was in the Rise and Fall of ECW DVD. But that just goes to show how off the mindset of some ECW fans can be. The match is just a mess, a total overbooked mess of spots, brawls, chain collars and constant run-ins. It's truly notable for the payoff to an angle even some long-time ECW fans have forgotten as hated referee Bill Alfonso foolishly lifts a ban on the chokeslam, allowing 911 to come in and hit him with the greatest chokeslam ever. A famed ECW moment to be sure but the match itself just doesn't warrant its legendary status, despite its cool double super-bomb finish.

Ric Flair vs Vader, Starrcade ‘93:

For the few who might not know the full situation, this was going to be Vader losing the WCW title to Sid Vicious. However, two months before hand, after footage of him as champion had been shot for WCW's syndicated shows, Sid got into the infamous fight with Arn Anderson in London, stabbing Arn and was fired. So in desperation, Eric Bischoff and the WCW execs turned to Flair to save the big show. They did a quick setup with Flair vowing to retire if he lost and lots of stuff about his career during the show. All that was supposed to lead to a classic encounter. While it was good, very hard-hitting at times, it's not quite the Flair classic so many claim it is. A lot of it is Vader totally in control, smashing Flair about with ease with Flair doing his usual spots in between. The ending is a bit out of nowhere with Flair knocking Flair down and Flair weakly grabs the knee to pull him back and suddenly, after seeming such a monster during the whole match, Vader is unable to kick out of the weak roll-up. A good match with lots of emotion but just not the four-star so many claim it to be.

Terry Funk vs Sabu, barbed wire match:

This is one of those matches I'd heard so much about during the time when ECW had yet to reach national presence. It sounds great: Funk and Sabu, two men known for amazingly bloody and brutal battles going at it in a barbed wire matchup. WWE put it out on a compilation of ECW matches with Paul Heyman saying they only had one match because it was so bloody. Once I saw it, however, I came to the conclusion they only did it once because it was so bad. The match is a mess with just punches and kicks, the actual wire bloody, yes, but that's all, just blood with no real flow to the story of the match. It's bouts like this that give "hardcore" a bad rap, just a total mess and if ECW fans claim this is a good example of the promotion's glory days, no wonder Vince is so down on it.

Hulk Hogan vs the Ultimate Warrior, Wrestlemania VI:

The most common mainstream misconception about wrestling is that every match is scripted right down to the last move. This is the one major match where's that 100% true. Knowing full well how rough in the ring Hogan and Warrior could be, Pat Patterson not only scripted out their clash but had them run through it multiple times in secret. The result is that this wasn't a wrestling match so much as a choreographed ballet. Yes, it was awesome to watch the two biggest stars in the industry at the time going at it head to head. But watch it now and you can clearly see how they're getting into their planned strategy, no improvising which makes it more stilted. True, Hogan and Warrior were usually that way anyhow but it's clearer here and the disaster of their 1998 rematch proves just how important Patterson's input here was. You did have to give these guys directions but making it so strict bled any of the true power out of it for later viewers.

Jeff Hardy vs Undertaker, ladder match, RAW May 2002:

Even at the time, I did not think this that big a match yet people hail it as a great turning point for Jeff. But I just don't see it. Undertaker's never been the right guy for a ladder match, not just in height but climbing just seems…well, out of character for him. Maybe part of my annoyance is Jim Ross going way over the top urging Jeff on for the title and making it seem like he can really do it as a great moment for the entire business. Even the end, with Taker raising Jeff's arm as respect, just comes off too contrived and the spots are just too much on Jeff's head with Taker shrugging off his own attacks. A fair match, really but not really that great.

Ric Flair vs Sting, Clash of the Champions I:

Boy, Flair's been popping up on this list a lot, hasn't he? I know I talked about this match being good in my Clash spotlight a few weeks back and it is still. But watch it again and it's clear just how much Flair is carrying a very green Sting to a top bout. Not only that but a lot of the moves that Flair has repeated ad naseum over the years come in here. It's also clear looking back that there was a lot of stalling by both men to get to the time-limit draw and as such, it's almost like Flair wasn't giving as good as he could. I mean, I've seen him do more passion in a lot of the Windham bouts then here. It made Sting a star, yes, but as a stand-alone bout, it just isn't the unanimous MOTY of that year that it's been retroactively portrayed as and both guys have done so, so much better since.

Bret Hart vs Owen Hart, SummerSlam ‘94

: I've never understood why so many people put this in the same level as their Wrestlemania X classic. It's a fun match but they've had better, not just Mania but even that "Action Zone" TV match is better in the flows and moves. Sure there are good bits like the suplex off the top of the cage but it's really not as high-pitched a bout as you'd expect and no blood at all. I know, '94, bloody bouts weren't common in WWF but given the heat between them, you'd expect a really violent affair and that didn't happen so I'd call this one of their weaker matchups.

Dudleyz vs Hardyz vs Edge & Christian, Wrestlemania X-7: Their first battle was amazing as no one expected them to break out so many death-defying moves and use ladders and tables so well. The second at SummerSlam 2000 upped it with more of the same violence and reworking some of the spots. But this one is not as great as those due to its familiarity. We'd seen the spears off ladders, seen the swantons through tables, seen guys hanging from the cables with the belts. Hell, even the end of E&C winning was the same as the other ones, which never sat right with me. Adding in Rhino, Lita and Spike did liven it up but the fact was, we'd seen these teams fighting each other for over a year, it just wasn't really anything new. Oh, yeah, plenty of stunning spots and moments that made you fear for their lives but it just seemed too much a retread of what had gone before to truly appreciate, let alone rate as the best of the bunch.

Shawn Michaels vs Marty Janetty, June 1993 RAW

: This was actually voted the Match of the Year for 1993 by Pro Wrestling Illustrated and that just tells you how poor the matches of 1993 seemed. Now, that they have chemistry isn't surprising given all their years as tag team partners. However, the match just doesn't seem as cool as it's been promoted since, quite short as Janetty seemed to pin Michaels but it was reversed when the ref was told Michaels had his foot on the rope. The following minutes were good but marked by a long chinlock on the canvas before various reversals and then the ending of Janetty flying over the top rope, knocked out and thrown back in by Diesel so Michaels could get the pin. Not too bad a match but really not great and certainly not the most amazing of the year. Hell, their Royal Rumble match of that year seems better and Janetty was reportedly drunk at the time, which puts this in even more perspective.

Brock Lesner vs Kurt Angle, Wrestlemania XIX:

A lot of the respect for this is the physical abilities of both guys. Angle, it was well known, needed serious neck surgery and his even coming to defend the WWE title at the card was a shock. Right off, a lot of fans were ready to fall over themselves just to give Angle his due for coming out. I do respect how great it was for him to work like that when by right he should have been at a hospital bed but that's just the excuse for how rough it seemed. Lesner was always a bit stiff at times in the ring but it's clear he was holding back a bit so he wouldn't injure Angle too much. Look at it again and it does seem like some of the timing is off at times, nowhere more than when Lesner goes for the shooting star and damn near broke his neck. That added even more respect for the match from most fans but looking back at it today with a clearer eye and you can see the flaws, which are even bigger considering the stage it was set on. The main event of Wrestlemania just isn't the time to have a marred match and sadly, this does fit into it.

[The Pain]

Горе-долу съм съгласен за Брет vs Оуен.На мен мачът им от Мания ми хареса много повече.Не съм много съгласен за Кърт и Брок,това ми е един от любимите мачове.Съгласен съм за Брет и Шон-мача ми хареса,но на места е доста бавен и скучен.

[wwz]

Всичко съм гледал освен Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich но не мога да разбера какво му има против на Owen/Bret от Summerslam?На мен този мач ми хареса повече и от мача им на Манията.Единственото за което съм напълно съгласен с Weyer е мача Hardy/Taker от RAW.

[YoTheReal]

За TLC от 2001 ше спорим, и то яко Това е най-добрия TLC ever, к'ви глупости дрънка, като публиката не спря да вика, гледах го преди 3 часа и смело заявявам-УНИКАЛЕН !!

Повечето тук съм ги гледал освен тея на Ric. Не съм съгласен. Освен на Харди-Тейкър. Там мача не ми хареса много-много. Другото беше 'ае дрънкаме глупости'.

[neshev]

LesnEr и дискусията приключи...

[UltraMadd]

По принцип няма голям смисъл да се спори по подобни теми, защото всичко е въпрос на лично мнение, но така или иначе сме почнали... Аз като цяло съм доста съгласен с автора. Ще коментирам само мачовете, които съм гледал:

Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels, Wrestlemania XII - тук съм напълно съгласен с автора. За мен това е един от най-надценените мачове в историята. На моменти е толкова скучен, че направо не мога да го опиша с думи. Много рядко ми се случва да достигна до такова отегчение, докато гледам кеч мач. Но това си е мое мнение. Има един цитат от статията, който може би обяснява нещата: "For example, a lot of younger fans will say the Ramon/Michaels Wrestlemania X ladder match is overrated but you had to be there at the time to truly appreciate the magnitude of how much it changed the whole flow of wrestling". Според мен това може да се каже за всеки един по-стар мач. Точно това мисля и за Iron Man-а между Shawn и Bret. За по-старите фенове мачът може и да е добър, но аз въобще не мога да го възприема и да твърдя, че е добър.

Terry Funk vs Sabu, barbed wire match - този мач го гледах съвсем наскоро, така че спомените ми са доста ясни. Мачът като цяло е едно недоразумение, изпълнено с грешки. В началото започнаха много добре, но нещата се развалиха тотално след като Sabu си контузи ръката. Евала му правя, че продължи мача след такова сериозно срязване (даже май и мускула си е скъсал), но от този момент нататък мачът suck-ваше. Имаше един период, когато въобще не знаеха какво да правят, а и финалът не ми допадна въобще.

Jeff Hardy vs Undertaker, ladder match, RAW May 2002 - признавам си, че колкото и пъти да гледам този мач, винаги се кефя много яко, но това е защото съм Jeff Hardy mark. Иначе самият мач наистина не е чак толкова добър, колкото много хора го изкарват. Може би това, че мачът е на RAW оказва влияние, защото такива мачове наистина не се виждат често на седмични шоута.

Dudleyz vs Hardyz vs Edge & Christian, Wrestlemania X-7 - тук вече не съм чак толкова съгласен с автора, но има известна логика в думите му. Много други хора също твърдят, че в този мач не може да се види почти нищо, което да не е било направени в предишните два тройни мача между двата отбора (Triangular Ladder Match-а от WM16 и TLC1 от SummerSlam 2000), но пък аз по принцип обичам подобни изпълнения, така че останах доволен, а и освен това и трите отбора ме кефят, така че няма как да не се радвам.

Brock Lesner vs Kurt Angle, Wrestlemania XIX - това и според мен е много надценен мач. Не съм 100% сигурен, но мисля, че съм го гледал два пъти и, честно казано, единственото нещо, което помня, е botch-натия Shooting Star Press от страна на Lesnar, при който той едва не си счупи врата. Дори не си спомням как завърши мача след това.

[Shawn_Michaels]

Тая класация е много зле и аз не съм съгласен с абсолютно нищо,че е надценено,че и кавала писал Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels, Wrestlemania XII надценено баси злетака..........кво му е надценено тоя мач даже няма 5 звезди според Мелцер тоя мач даже мога да е кажа,че е много подценен не надценен просто супер зле.....нямам думи

[Freddy Kruger]

Гледал съм част от мачовете с някои съм съглесен с др. не

Шон с/у Брет -мача е уникален просто един от най-добрите в историята на WWF-E и не смятам че е надценен, просто невероятен мач

Оуен с/у Брет - за този мач съм абсолютно съгласен и на мен изобщо не ми допада, с класи под мача им от Мания е

TLC-то от мания е един от най-добрите такива, това че всичко вече сме го виждали е почти вярно, все пак не е 1вия подобен мач и просто няма кой знае какво ново да се направи след другите 2 подобни мача и все пак беше изпълнен със страхотни спотове и много емоция

Брок с/у Кърт - мача беше много добър до shooting star pres, а и след това просто това изпълнение не му се получи. Иначе смятам че я беше направил мача можеше и да получи *****.

Другите мачове все още не съм ги гледал, но ще се поправя до няколко дена, ще ги изгледам и ще си кажа мнението

[nWoHulkster]

Съгласен с по-голямата част от класацията, но го има и момента, че колкото повече време минава някои от мачовете просто губят чара си с времето, така че дори и едно време да са изглеждали като нещо по-особено сега човек като ги гледа, дори и да има предвид времето, когато са се състояли, мачовете просто вече не изглеждат толкова добре. Some matches age well, others do not.

Мачове, с които изобщо не съм съгласен, че са надценени: Flair/Steamboat, Bret/Owen & TLC. И трите са си класики за времето си и дори и сега да ги гледам вероятно ще ми харесат много. Bret/Owen специално на първо гледане ми хареса повече от мача им от WM. И трите мача съм ги гледал много отдавна и само по един път, така че е напълно възможно мнението ми да се промени, ако ги изгледам наново, но първоначалните ми впечатления бяха, че това беше един от най-драматичните WWF cage мачове, които съм гледал някога.

Мачове, които може би са леко надценени: Flair/Vader и Hogan/Warrior. И двата са добри мачове, няма съмнение. Въпросът е колко са добри. Отново, не съм ги гледал от години насам и значителна част от спомените за мачовете ми се губят, така че не мога да дам 100% обективно мнение, докато не ги изгледам наново. И все пак, да, може би са леко надценени, тъй като нямам спомен да съм останал без дъх след гледането на тези мачове, а и двата се спрягат като много добри. Не знам, трябва да ги изгледам отново.

Мачове, които са леко надценени: Flair/Kerry, Flair/Sting и Michaels/Janetty. Просто не мисля, че са ЧАК толкова добри.

Мачове, които са солидно надценени: Hardy/Taker, ECW Dog Collar Tag и Lesnar/Angle. Първият е просто добър мач и нищо кой знае какво, вторият се схваща най-добре в контекст и като го извадиш от този контекст/истории не е чак толкова добър, а и с годините чара му си отива IMO, а третият също е просто добър мач с няколко запомнящи се неща и не е нищо чак толкова особено, че да се спряга като страхотен мач.

Мачове, които са яко надценени: Funk/Sabu и Bret/Shawn. Funk/Sabu просто не е добър barbed wire мач. Запомнящ се мач - да, но кеч класика откъм качество на мача - не. Но тъй като е първият barbed wire мач по PPV в САЩ, тъй като участниците са Funk & Sabu и тъй като по принцип в Интернет има тенденция да се надценяват неща от ECW, мачът има голяма репутация из Интернет. Да, мачът заслужава да се види заради историческата си стойност и контузията на Sabu, но като цяло е доста надценен. И така стигаме до според мен може би най-надцененият мач в цялата PPV история на WWF: Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels - 60-minute Iron Man. Sorry, обаче по-голямата част от мача просто си е безцелно размотване и огромна скука, която е придобила легендарен статут, тъй като е от WM, нещо уникално за времето си (60-minute iron man), има усещане за грандиозност, има добър финал и участниците са Shawn & Bret. Но като оставим това настрана мачът въобще не е чак толкова добър колкото много народ из 'нета разправя, че е (петзвездна кеч класика, един от най-добрите в историята на WWF!~). Мачът просто е яко надценен откъм качество. ***1/2 със сигурност, но вече за **** ще трябва да се замисля, пък за ***** въобще не може да става дума, според мен.

И пак повтарям, че ако ги изгледам отново евентуално мнението ми за някои от мачовете може да се промени, но от това, което си спомням нещата стоят именно така. ^

[Shawn_Michaels]

Смехотворни глупости изговорихте с Ultramadd за мача на Брет с Шон.....,просто не знам.....,за мен това е най-добрия мач някога,който съм гледал,просто произведение на изкуството,а Phil ти ще ми даваш *** 1/2 ,я бягай от тука :nuke:

[UltraMadd]

Shawn, както казах по-нагоре, всичко е въпрос на лично мнение. Аз този мач просто не мога да го възприема. По принцип не обичам мачове, в които има много размотаване, дори и да са по 15-20 минути, а този продължава повече от час и доста голяма част от него е размотаване, което ме отегчава до краен предел.